Topic: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?

[anastasis]

Now you claim Jesus called the jews gods?

not the jews specifically, anyone to whom the word of God came(and excepted it)

 Anastasis you letting your pre-convictions stand between U and what I'm trying to say. so lets go little by little

You are not??


What I said is that their maybe reference for this in the Quraan. So it's not a "lets wait & see situation"
 there is not a definitive verse. this may take centuaries.

In bible there are definite verses like Jeremiah 15:19-21.Won’t take so long.

not the jews specifically,
Well then How do you explain What you claim that God comes in three "types"? sorry that makes no sense.

Incarnation is very different, compare trinity with a man who can be as well a father, as a son, as husband, it’s similar, not the same. Makes no sense because it’s not in Quraan, insn’t it?

 
From what I know, all can be traced to one, who could be a liar. I think that one is Peter. (you call Saint Peter)

You believe Peter wrote the bible?? That’s a sad mistake, though important. From the 27 books written in the new testament there are most probably 14 written by paul, the rest by James, John, Matthew, james, Luke, Marc, Jude. You can see that in writing style and different emphasis of the different people.
Peter wrote only in Greek and the old testament was written in Hebrew.
The old testament books where originally written by the prophets themselves or their personal scribes. Later because their important values, monks in monasteries and other religious people copied or translated them to make them spread.
Although you can make writing faults, for me is more secure then memorizing scripture.

I didn't quite understand what You're saying but the way Quraan reached Us is this Hundreds of people memorized it, from them hundreds memorized, from them thousands memorized it. to this day. it's impossible they all agree to lie the same lie.

How can someone memorize a whole quraan? It was also written down, copied and translated.


Then you don't know the definition of a miracle.
a Miracle is something supernatural that happens on the hands of a Prophet. And no one can do anything like it. Or claim they can do the same.
Jesus used to cure the man who was born blind. until now this is most of the times impossible medically. And he raised three people from the dead. One of them had been dead for thousands of years. 
and I know how your system of what U call miracles work. I live in a country almost half of it are christians and all there is to it is they go to a shrine and light a candle and pray their son be cured of a sickness. if he does they consider it a miracle. and amazingly the have a system of "scorekeeping" and ranking system. '


Than you live unfortunately with Catholics around you, indeed they misuse the bible sometimes, and have other sources for their belief.
Bible says clearly That God gives special gifts to the believers (anointing or empowering of the Holy Spirit or special abilities) This can be: teaching, encouraging, serving, directing,…, but also healing.
So if we need a major healing we go to meetings where a person with the gift with healing will pray for us and lays hands upon the sick, where after they might be healed. Like the mother of a friend of mine who was 10years in a wheelchair because of accident after such a meeting she could walk as a normal person and his brother was healed from a brain tumor you could see on a x-ray after and before.
I know a miracle if I see one. Check out: ***no links w/o the permission of the modorator***
It might not convince you because it’s not out of first hand, but I heared several testimonies: like blind who see again, lame walking again and rarely a dead raised. Though it stays controversial 

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It's a blasphemy to "hate" Allah. and loving one's neighbour is a good thing. It's mentioned in the Prophet's teachings.

There is a huge differents between hating God and loving God with all your heart, soul and mind,
So the answer is no?

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Muslims will be way taller and very handsom, as Handsom as Yusef the Prophet(josef). In paradise.
In Hell the dwellers will be very large. and their skin will be very thick so they keep suffering as it burns.

Really?

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 Because Jesus never asked to be worshiped.

Not literally no, but in his time he was worshipped by many and he didn’t prevent it

[Advisor]

not the jews specifically, anyone to whom the word of God came(and excepted it)

Anybody who does that becomes a god you claim!!!!!!!!!!!!

Makes no sense because it’s not in Quraan, insn’t it?

Not only that. But it's not rational. The only rational thing is that Allah doesn't change or divide. Because this would mean that this change is implicated by supperior being. or that He is not Perfect(because there can only be one state of perfection) which is impossible.

Later because their important values, monks in monasteries and other religious people copied or translated them to make them spread.

There U go. some of these changed the contents little by little. The Quraan refers to this.

How can someone memorize a whole quraan? It was also written down, copied and translated.

There is a yearly contest in memorizing Quraan. Where the comity starts reciting a verse and the contestent continues from it.
In previos times, Most Kids memorized Quraan at the age of 8 may be even younger. until now there are kids who do that.
It's part of the strength of Quraan that it's easy to memorize. like poetry but then it's not poetry. No rythem, no rhym in most cases.
a true miracle by all means.

Not literally no, but in his time he was worshipped by many and he didn’t prevent it

Well in the Quraan it says what means: Allah asked jesus after he was elevated to heaven(as you probably know, our beleif is that he was not crucified and that he is alive to this day. and he will be sent back to earth before Day of Judjment) He asked him -and Allah knows the answer better than anyone- "Jesus, Did you say to people: worship me and my mother" Jesus answered What means Praise you Allah, I'd never say anything you didn't ask me to say. I.e it's imposible that Allah sends a Prophet that sees people who worship him and doesn't stop them their message is that they should worship only Allah. not Idols. Not Planets. Not Kings. not Angels. and ofcourse not Prophets.

[anastasis]

I’m back because I have a bit of time now,
I don’t want to argue about theology, because we would continue stating: this is what the bible says and this is what the quran says.
I only want to talk about the authorothy of the Bible and Quran.
It comes all down to that.

The Bible(today) is not only authorised by ancient scriptures, but as I said by his adversaries and by Mohammed(sura 6verse154-155, 2verse127, 40verse 69-71 and many others) . Since the bible today is the same bible that Mohammed had in his time!

I wonder about your authorisation of the Quran.
Is there any proof or indication that there were writings of muslims before the Quran and others apart from quran’s own testimony?
You have maid it yourself easy by falling back on mouth to mouth declarations and memorisations whereof nothing is provable. And everybody knows how influencable words are.
By the way the many groupings of Islam have very different interpretations of the Quran and versions of the other writings.
And I never heard of any muslim a reason why Christians would change, modify or adapt Gods Word!!
And it still puzzles me how muslims can appeal to a revelation gone up to heaven whereof there is no evidence.

[samsparky]

anastasias,

Go slow so you understand us and you don't keep asking the same questions.

Muslims believe that all Messengers of God, from Adam to MuHammad - including Prophet Jesus - called the people to Islaam. The Divine Books that were Revealed all were the same in the belief system. No Messenger of God preached a different belief system than Islaam.

We have the Qur'aan preserved - but there exists many versions of what is called the bible nowadays that contradict the basics of the belief that all Messengers came with and also different versions contradict each other.

It's clear that people have interfered with what different people call as the bible because different people have different versions that give a contradicting meaning to other versions.

Islam is different because there is only 1 correct belief system backed up by the Qur'aan and Hadeeth.

[Advisor]

Just to add to what sam said. In the case of Jesus and Moses, Allah revealed 2 books. The Torah for Mouses and Ingil(I'll refer to it as  Gospel). These books are originally the true words revealed to both Prophets.

The disscussion here is that the ones you have nowadays have little to do with the original. The Quraan states in more than a location that what Jesus and Moses Called to and preached was altered heavilly later on. and this includes both books where the originals don't exist on this earth now.

As for scriptures, it's well known that until 400 years ago or so. any scripture or so not on par with what the so called bible said was destroyed. (Note: Even some that may contain alternate view survived and was in Iraq was stolen during the US led invasion by CIA)

This conversation is running in circles.

[anastasis]

Pitty that I didn't hear much about Quran's authorisation or authency.
This conversation is obvious not going in circles since there ar new points.

Sam, if you say that bibles contradict eachother you should give an example.
The bibleversions accepted by the general church are all for about 98% the same, that two percent is, that different translations can give different emphasis (theology might differ as in Islam).
The Quran might be the same as long as it is not translated, but there are many versions of Hadeeth I understood.

Advisor, nobody knows the original books(according to you), so nobody can say or they are similar or not.
Can you please give reference if you refer to Quran?
In case that Quran says that what Jesus and Moses preached was alterated (is what the rest of the biblical prophets say not alterated??) than Quran contradicts itself, because apart from previous texts I've got more text here from the quran that authorises the (Holy)Bible and scriptures from old:Sura 2:135, Sura 5:65-66,43-48, etc.
(hope you read them).

by 1600BC(400years ago) the bible was spread over a great part of the world. Many were destroyed in the west and east, but probably not even the biggest part. And surely not hardly any of the original scriptures(for us). 

[samsparky]

anastasias,

You are not reading the posts completely and properly.

I advise you to do so and not to just skim so that you can get a thorough understanding.

The Qur'aan was Revealed to Prophet MuHammad through Angel Jibril (Gabriel). We know it is true because it tells of many things that had not happened at the Prophet's time yet and actually did happen after that. Also, no human can ever be able to author anything like it - no matter how strong they are in language.

God supported all His Prophets with miracles (extraordinary actions that happen on the hands of those who claim Prophethood, in accordance with their claim and it can not be discredited by anyone else).

That is another proof to believe in Prophet MuHammad because many miracles were narrated about him by many many people to many many people in a way that it would be impossible for them all to agree to lie.

Just like how people all agree that there was a man called hitler and that there is a place called china - eventhough not all of us have seen it or lived at hitler's time.

I think I will let you digest that and if Advisor wants to add, I welcome him to.

[Advisor]

Advisor, nobody knows the original books(according to you), so nobody can say or they are similar or not.

"Or NOT" is a progress. We have proof they are not, from Quraan.

Can you please give reference if you refer to Quran?

I did before and I don't memorize the Quraan so this may take a while

In case that Quran says that what Jesus and Moses preached was alterated (is what the rest of the biblical prophets say not alterated??)

The entire so called Bilble is altered. Quraan mentions 25 prophets by name. What goes against the Quraan is false.

than Quran contradicts itself, because apart from previous texts I've got more text here from the quran that authorises the (Holy)Bible and scriptures from old:Sura 2:135, Sura 5:65-66,43-48, etc.

Is it really that hard to comprehend that any verse acknowledge the Taorat or Ingile (Gospel) talk about what was originally revealed to Prophet Jesus and Moses? make no mistake anyone denies them them is a blasphemer. And anyone who beleives that these you have here haven't been altered has also commited blasphemy. Both for belieing the Quraan

[anastasis]

Sam,
we can say the same things about the bible, but that doesn't do the job for me.

Question: Do you think Mohammed could have written the bible without the Christian bible, or do you think that Gabriel dictated him everything?

Yes the prophets are the same as our's.

"impossible for them all to agree to lie".
Can you mention some of them? The miracles were mentioned in the Hadith isn't it?
and that one differs for the different muslimgroups.

advisor
I don't except the Qurans authorothy, but please give me the proof (in contradiction with my own proof out of the Quran).

There is a big difference between: what the Quran calls (original) Taorat and Ingile or the Holy Bible and scriptures of old. There are no two kind of bibles are there?
The authorasation of the bible can be seen as a theme in the Quran, since the many verses. By the way the Quran mentions that the word of God can not be changed. And than we still don't know the reason why christians would have changed the original revelation?

If you mean by your proof the verses like the tahrif, it is clear that what was altered was the spoken words, not the written word. In one of the occurrences,5:44 it is actually Mohammed's words that were changed. If tahrif for example, is to be interpreted as alteration of text where would that leave the Muslim? To interpret these (isolated)verses any other way than alteration of the spoken word, would be to contradict the rest of the Quran. Don't know what you think about Ibn. Taymiyya but he concludes that altering the Bible would just not have been possible.

In my conclusion of all above I see that there is not a problem with the book(bible) but there is a problem with the people from the book( jews, Christians) since many of them don't apply it. Sura 5:65-66 

Anyway I think I've come to the end of my reasoning, I reached my goal, I don't want to bother you again, risking to go in circles :-). It was nice chatting with you. Wich I could talk to you face to face, but the East is a bit to far from the West.

[Emilee]

we still don't know the reason why christians would have changed the original revelation?

anastasis,
the christians misunderstood the bible, and Jesus's elevation to sky, and therefore chagned the Bible, giving their opinion.