Topic: Discussion of Essentials of Beleif

[Sami Yusuf Islam]

God is someone.  Good and evil are possible for anyone with the knowledge of good and evil.  And God knows all.

God is merciful, forgiving and just.  Are mercy, forgiveness and justice creations too?

You did not read my post above....


You are just putting your ideas irrelevant of whatever answers were to your posts.....

That stops here.

[challenger]

and you call that Logic ?

God is The Creator of Everything, be it tangible things or abstract things. Anger, Happiness, Joy and the like are ALL created by God.

How come

Would you say those feelings created themselves

Of course not….  For if you say so, you have qualified those feelings of being a creator at once, and a creature later…. Which is totally illogical.

OK, would you then call them the creatures of another claimed God??

Of course not, for God has No partner, No associate….

Thus, feelings and emotions are definitely created by God, very much like tangible things…

Possibly God has no feelings.  Good and Evil are not feelings but they are abstractions.

Abstractions are not created.  Abstractions are knowledge.  If God is eternal and all-knowing, then they have always existed.  You cannot say God is all-knowing and then deny that knowledge existed with God or that it was created by a God that knew nothing.

There is no end to paradise, pretty much as there is no end to Hellfire…

Then paradise and hellfire are not creations or Creed Defender's saying, "Both Good and Evil are creations of God and this is known by logic (because they have beginigng and end ) and whoever has a beginigng and an end is a creation of God..", is logically deficient.

that is a bad interpretation. We Muslims are strongly against translating

  Çááå äæÑ ÇáÓãæÇÊ æÇáÃÑÖ

As “Allah is the light ….. “

That translation goes against the meaning of other verses such as

  áíÓ ßãËáå ÔÆ æåæ ÇáÓãíÚ ÇáÈÕíÑ

And

  Þá åæ Çááå ÃÍÏ

And
  æáã íßä áå ßÝæÇ ÃÍÏ

And
  åá ÊÚáã áå ÓãíÇ

THUS, we refute this translation ……

I do not  read Arabic, so your refutation is lost on me.

But other scholars have written in English on the similitude of Al Nur.
You will have to refute them as well.

[challenger]

You did not read my post above....

That is true.  Your post did not exist when I began to respond to another.  But I would be grateful to anyone for a response to the substance of my reply.

You are just putting your ideas irrelevant of whatever answers were to your posts.....

That stops here.

The accusation is unjust and the threat unnecessary.

[Sami Yusuf Islam]

Challenger,


The Knowledge of Allah, God, is NOT Created.

Thus, He is All-Knowing,

The Attribute of Hearing (unlike humans) of Allah, God, is NOT created.

Thus, He is "The Hearer"

The same could be said about the other Attributes of God.

However,

The Knowledge (and every other aspect of human feelings and abstract ideas) is created. it is created by God.


The hearing of human beings and animals are created too.

[Orthopreacher]

Challenger,
The Knowledge of Allah, God, is NOT Created.
Thus, He is All-Knowing,
The Attribute of Hearing (unlike humans) of Allah, God, is NOT created.
Thus, He is "The Hearer"
The same could be said about the other Attributes of God.
However,
The Knowledge (and every other aspect of human feelings and abstract ideas) is created. it is created by God.
The hearing of human beings and animals are created too.

Abdullah,
I think you are missing Challenger's point, and mine as well.  The attribute of good or evil or compassion or any other such attribute is simply a way we as humans describe actions.  There is no good or evil independent of an action or attitude.  Therefore, the reasoning is that since good and evil are not independent of action or attitude, they are not something that stands alone in creation, they are not created things.  Carefully, they are not THINGS at all.  They are how we as humans describe an action for our ability to understand the action.  They are how we describe an attitude so that we can understand the attitude.  That is all they are, ways in which we humans describe things.

ciao
paul

[challenger]

Challenger,

The Knowledge of Allah, God, is NOT Created.

Thus, He is All-Knowing,

The Attribute of Hearing (unlike humans) of Allah, God, is NOT created.

Thus, He is "The Hearer"

The same could be said about the other Attributes of God.

However,

The Knowledge (and every other aspect of human feelings and abstract ideas) is created. it is created by God.

The hearing of human beings and animals are created too.

That is true of hearing.  And the hearing of God and creatures are different.

But has not man's hearing, as an abstraction, always been known to God?  Have not all abstractions been known to God and only become creations when they are given physical form or process?

Is not good and evil revealed by the Torah, the Bible and the Koran?
And are they not revealed directly from God?  Are these not God's thoughts?  Has not the idea of good always been good, and evil, evil?  Is not an act good or evil regardless of whether it has actually been effectuated and has therefore always been so?

[Sami Yusuf Islam]

Abdullah,
I think you are missing Challenger's point, and mine as well.  

No, I did get you very well and I did answer you accordingly.

Good and Evil are not things that stand alone: True

Actions done are described as Good and Evil: True again.

But our thinking, our languages, our feelings, our minds, our logic, are all created by God, Who is The Creator of all.

Tangible things and intangible things are all created by God.

If Good and Evil are only descriptions, they take place in our reasoning…. Right ?

Well, our reasoning and the tools it uses in its analysis are all created.

[Orthopreacher]

No, I did get you very well and I did answer you accordingly.

Good and Evil are not things that stand alone: True

Actions done are described as Good and Evil: True again.

But our thinking, our languages, our feelings, our minds, our logic, are all created by God, Who is The Creator of all.

Tangible things and intangible things are all created by God.

If Good and Evil are only descriptions, they take place in our reasoning…. Right ?

Well, our reasoning and the tools it uses in its analysis are all created.

Tangible things are the only creations.  Intangible things like attitudes and attributes are not created things.  The very definition of a "thing" would have to include tangibility.

When we say that God created all things, we are not talking about the words we speak or our actions.  He created man with the ability to think for himself and speak of his own accord.  Man in a way is able to synthesize thought.  This is considered creation, but what man does is really just use his knowledge that he acquires as a raw material and rearrange that knowledge into independent thought.  When he expresses that independent thought, it is a form of synthesis or creation.  

Thoughts are not created THINGS then they are sythesized from the knowledge a man has acquired over the course of his experiences in life.  That is why a school child in primary or secondary school is not expected to understand the applications involved in a thesis.  Someone who has studied a discipline collects knowledge of past events and data from journals and research and then they apply this information that they collect to a thesis statement.  This is synthesis and not creation.

To claim that thoughts and attitudes are created is fundamentally flawed since thoughts and attitudes are independently synthesized from available information collected by the person possessing the thoughts.

ciao
paul

[Sami Yusuf Islam]

The very definition of a "thing" would have to include tangibility

Are not the angels “creatures”

Can you shake hands with them Can you see them are they tangible

What about the Spirit……?

Is it tangible ?

When we say that God created all things, we are not talking about the words we speak or our actions.  

*WE* are…..

 Man in a way is able to synthesize thought.  

Synthesize yes…… create….. no, only God creates….

 This is considered creation, but what man does is really just use his knowledge that he acquires as a raw material and rearrange that knowledge into independent thought.  

Thus, man’s action is simple thinking……  not creation….

It is Synthesis…… not creation

 it is a form of synthesis or creation.  

not same meaning….

You synthesize using Raw Material : the idea, its consequences, bad or good outcomes….

However, God created everything out of Nothing…

 Thoughts are not created THINGS then they are sythesized from the knowledge a man has acquired over the course of his experiences in life

Of course they are….

 To claim that thoughts and attitudes are created is fundamentally flawed since thoughts and attitudes are independently synthesized from available information collected by the person possessing the thoughts.

Those ideas are created…..  The mind of the collector is created. His ways of thinking are created too…..

It is not flawed if *YOU* do not see it right Paul…

[Servant of Islam]

To claim that thoughts and attitudes are created is fundamentally flawed since thoughts and attitudes are independently synthesized from available information collected by the person possessing the thoughts.

ciao
paul

Aha! :stumped
When u collect these information, dont they come from a created source???
Like if u meat someone, and after a while u think that he's a great guy, do u consider this thought of yours as not created while the person himself is created ??!!
Like when u read a  book wich will be the source of ur thoughts because u collected ur informations from it, do u classify ur thoughts that u collected from a created book as not created thoughts??!!!