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Author Topic: Discussion of Essentials of Beleif  (Read 4529 times)

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Offline challenger

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« on: Saturday 21 December 2002, 23:38 »
Quote from: EVE
Allah is one; He is indivisible, i.e., He is not a body.
Allah has no partner, no counterpart, no wife, no son.

lntellectively, this is understood because if there were two partners and one partner willed for one thing to be and the other partner willed the opposite thing--we know opposites do not happen simultaneously--so the one who willed what did not occur is weak.
Weakness is non-befitting to attribute to God; therefore, there is only one God.


There is a flaw in the logic above from a Christian perspective.

I think I understand the source of it is from different views of God's nature.  In the Christian view, there is a concept of perfect goodness which only God knows perfectly and from which God never deviates.  God is never the author of evil, which only exists because of the free will granted His creations.  The Islamic view as I understand it is that God (Allah) is directly the author of both good and evil.

In the Christian perspective it is impossible for a disagreement to arise between Father, Son and Holy Spirit and they are always of one good accord.  This is exemplified by the prayer of Jesus in the Garden of Gesthemene accepting His Father's will for the cross.  They are as much one as ice (the Father), water (the Son, the "living water") and steam (Spirit) are all manefestations of H20.

Two gods capable of both good and evil could at times be antithetical.  But the argument makes no sense to a Christian.  Can you reformulate it so that it would?

Offline ABDU

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 22 December 2002, 07:12 »
welcome challenger to TAI, thanks for joining us  :bro1

Quote from: challenger
There is a flaw in the logic above from a Christian perspective.


EVE was talking intellectively  in this logic not only religiously...

Quote from: challenger

I think I understand the source of it is from different views of God's nature.  In the Christian view, there is a concept of perfect goodness which only God knows perfectly and from which God never deviates.  God is never the author of evil, which only exists because of the free will granted His creations.  The Islamic view as I understand it is that God (Allah) is directly the author of both good and evil.


I didn't get this one !! how come ? do you mean the christians say that God did not create the evil?? who created it in their opinion?? do they say it is Satan??
Allah created EVERYTHING , everything means everything ...

you said
Quote
In the Christian view, there is a concept of perfect goodness which only God knows perfectly and from which God never deviates.  

I can't see any perfection in this view, if as they said that Allah creates only the good, and as you see sometimes in this world Evil is stronger than Good, does it mean that Evil is stronger than God? ofcourse not, If He is weak than he would be created, and this is IMPOSSIBLE.
 


Quote from: challenger
In the Christian perspective it is impossible for a disagreement to arise between Father, Son and Holy Spirit and they are always of one good accord.  This is exemplified by the prayer of Jesus in the Garden of Gesthemene accepting His Father's will for the cross.  They are as much one as ice (the Father), water (the Son, the "living water") and steam (Spirit) are all manefestations of H20.

Two gods capable of both good and evil could at times be antithetical.  But the argument makes no sense to a Christian.  Can you reformulate it so that it would?


My friend challenger, Allah sent all prophets with one message. This is the only acceptable way. If Allah had sent as some people claim different religions with different prophets, how would one know who to follow? How would one know what's right and what's wrong. Hence, all the prophets came with one religion Islam. You see...to be a Muslim does not mean only to follow prophet Muhammad, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam, it means following all the prophets. All prophets came and taught people that there was only one God and that they were the prophets of God.

 Adam came and said there is no God but Allah and Adam is the prophet of Allah. Jesus came and said there is no God but Allah and Jesus is the prophet of Allah, and Muhammad came and said there is no God but Allah and Muhammadd is the prophet of Allah.

Now , what is the difference?. ...The difference is that some of the rules are different. For example, at the time of Jesus (may Allah raise his rank) it was an obligation to pray twice, but at the time of Prohet Muhammad (may Allah raise his rank), it became obligatory to pray five times.

My friend, Everything that exists, except Allah, the Creator, is created by Him. Allah has full power over every bit of His creation. Allah is not created; He existed always, having His attributes; He will never perish, nor will His attributes diminish. Among His attributes is that He has knowledge of all His creation, that He sees the seeable and that He hears the hearable, and His knowing, seeing and hearing are in no way similar to ours. Allah speaks and His Speech is not made up of language or sound, nor does it resemble the speech of man in any way. He does not need any of His creation for His existence and He does not resemble any of His creation in any way. This means that Allah is not a man or a woman; He is not "a Father" or "a Mother". He does not have a wife, a mother, a father, a son, or a daughter; He has no equal or partner. Allah does not divide into parts; no creation, including man, has "a part of Allah" in him, nor can any creation become like Allah. He is the only God.

Allah existed eternally before He created any place, such as Paradise (Heaven), the skies, earth, or any planets. Hence, we know He is now as He was before He created all these places; He does not need any place to exist in. Allah has always known about every bit of His creation; there is no thing in His creation which escapes or defeats Him. No thing goes against the will of Allah. Both good and evil occur by His Will. However, Allah orders humans to do only the good; humans make the choice to obey or disobey Allah. Our ability to do good or evil is given to us by Allah, the Exalted.

Challenge, did I answer your question?? hope so..
I am waiting for your response and thanks again for joining this great forum, you are most welcome... see you  :bro1

Offline challenger

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 22 December 2002, 13:21 »
Quote from: ABDU
welcome challenger to TAI, thanks for joining us  :bro1


You're welcome.

Quote from: ABDU
EVE was talking intellectively  in this logic not only religiously...

I didn't get this one !! how come ? do you mean the christians say that God did not create the evil?? who created it in their opinion?? do they say it is Satan??
Allah created EVERYTHING , everything means everything ...
is great forum, you are most welcome... see you  :bro1


Good and Evil are not creations.  They are the moral qualities of actions.  They are the result of free will.  God gave his creations the ability to choose to do either.  In the Christian view God is perfect, moral and just  and never does that which is evil.  But his creations are less than the creator and have corrupted themselves and choose to do that which is contrary to the Will of God.

Offline Creed Defender

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 22 December 2002, 17:51 »
Look Challanger....

how come you say that good and evil are not creations... this is nonsenese and ridiculiuos ...  THEN ...if good and evil are not a creation then they will be the creator themselves accroding to what you have said.....


Both Good and Evil are creations of God and this is known by logic (because they have beginigng and end) and whoever has a beginigng and an end is a creation of God..

How come you say that God is perfect and that something in this world was not created by him...this implies that it was created by another creator...and thus he would not be the creator anymore...because the creator has to be perfect... i.e Created everything

And how contrary is your saying that God is perferct and then you describe him by human attributes saying once that he is the Father and once that he is an ice cube water...

God does NOT resemble any of the creations
Whatever you imagine in your mind, God is different from it... This is the perfection...

I hope that you understand what I have stated and I ask God to guide you to the correct path...

Offline Orthopreacher

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Good and evil
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 22 December 2002, 21:03 »
Quote
Challenger said:
Good and Evil are not creations. They are the moral qualities of actions. They are the result of free will. God gave his creations the ability to choose to do either. In the Christian view God is perfect, moral and just and never does that which is evil. But his creations are less than the creator and have corrupted themselves and choose to do that which is contrary to the Will of God.


In this Challenger is telling the truth.  Good and Evil are not created BEINGS and they are not tangible things such as dirt or water.  They are qualities of actions, they can also be qualities of attitudes.  Anger is not a creation either.

Quote
Creed Defender said:
Both Good and Evil are creations of God and this is known by logic (because they have beginigng and end) and whoever has a beginigng and an end is a creation of God..


I am sorry Creed Defender your "logic" fails since you cannot attribute personage to an inanimate attitude.  You say that "whoever" has a beginning well good and evil are not WHO's so they cannot fit this logical argument.

As for the fact that they exist, yes they are true and exist as attitudes and describe actions.  What you or I do with our vehicle can be either good or evil.  If we own a firearm we can use it for good or evil.  How we react to others can be good or evil.  Good and evil cannot exist apart from an attitude or an action.  There is no personification of evil as far as I can see.

ciao
paul

Offline Ismatudeen

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 22 December 2002, 21:22 »
Hi Everyone.  

Whether you see them as BEINGS or not is not relevant.  Evil and good didn't always exist because there was nothing before, and God created everything. Evil and good are done by someone right? How could have they existed on their own.  They exist with the humans .  Since humans didn't exists, and animals too, and other beings either, there was no good or evil.  Then , God brought them from non existence into existence.  It means he created them.

Offline Orthopreacher

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not entirely true
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 22 December 2002, 21:40 »
Quote from: ^Ismatudeen
Hi Everyone.  

Whether you see them as BEINGS or not is not relevant.  Evil and good didn't always exist because there was nothing before, and God created everything. Evil and good are done by someone right? How could have they existed on their own.  They exist with the humans .  Since humans didn't exists, and animals too, and other beings either, there was no good or evil.  Then , God brought them from non existence into existence.  It means he created them.


Just because, without action, good and evil did not statically exist, that does not make them created things.  What was observed is that they are not tangible things.  They are qualities of action or attitude but nothing more.  Just like "hurry" is not a created thing either.  Hurry is a quality of an action or thought.  I can hurry in my action or think in a hurried manner but that does not make HURRY a created thing, simply a quality of my thought or movement.  In the same way, good and evil are simple qualities of actions or attitudes that man has.  Man can act in a good manner as in the deeds he does for his fellow man OR he can act in an evil manner such as the man who blew up the truck bomb in Oklahoma City and killed innocent people.

ciao
paul

Offline challenger

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« Reply #7 on: Monday 23 December 2002, 00:04 »
Quote from: Creed Defender
Look Challanger....

how come you say that good and evil are not creations... this is nonsenese and ridiculiuos ...  THEN ...if good and evil are not a creation then they will be the creator themselves accroding to what you have said.....

Both Good and Evil are creations of God and this is known by logic (because they have beginigng and end) and whoever has a beginigng and an end is a creation of God..


By logic...

Since All that God does is Good (or Evil), then if there is a beginning or end of Good or Evil, there is a beginning or an end of God...

What is the end of paradise?

Quote from: Creed Defender
How come you say that God is perfect and that something in this world was not created by him...this implies that it was created by another creator...and thus he would not be the creator anymore...because the creator has to be perfect... i.e Created everything


Good and Evil are not things, just as mercy, compassion, forgiveness etc. are not things.

Quote from: Creed Defender
And how contrary is your saying that God is perferct and then you describe him by human attributes saying once that he is the Father and once that he is an ice cube water...

God does NOT resemble any of the creations
Whatever you imagine in your mind, God is different from it... This is the perfection...


Then is this saying a lie?:
[24.35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star...

Light, lamps, glass and stars are creations.
And they are metaphors.

Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« Reply #8 on: Monday 23 December 2002, 00:15 »
Quote from: challenger
By logic...

Since All that God does is Good (or Evil), then if there is a beginning or end of Good or Evil, there is a beginning or an end of God...



and you call that Logic ????

God is The Creator of Everything, be it tangible things or abstract things. Anger, Happiness, Joy and the like are ALL created by God.

How come ???

Would you say those feelings created themselves ???

Of course not….  For if you say so, you have qualified those feelings of being a creator at once, and a creature later…. Which is totally illogical.

OK, would you then call them the creatures of another claimed God??

Of course not, for God has No partner, No associate….

Thus, feelings and emotions are definitely created by God, very much like tangible things…

Quote from: challenger
What is the end of paradise?



There is no end to paradise, pretty much as there is no end to Hellfire…

Quote from: challenger
Then is this saying a lie?:
[24.35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth;


that is a bad interpretation. We Muslims are strongly against translating

  Çááå äæÑ ÇáÓãæÇÊ æÇáÃÑÖ

As “Allah is the light ….. “

That translation goes against the meaning of other verses such as

  áíÓ ßãËáå ÔÆ æåæ ÇáÓãíÚ ÇáÈÕíÑ

And

  Þá åæ Çááå ÃÍÏ

And
  æáã íßä áå ßÝæÇ ÃÍÏ

And
  åá ÊÚáã áå ÓãíÇ

THUS, we refute this translation ……

Offline challenger

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Discussion of Essentials of Beleif
« Reply #9 on: Monday 23 December 2002, 00:36 »
Quote from: ^Ismatudeen
Hi Everyone.  

Whether you see them as BEINGS or not is not relevant.  Evil and good didn't always exist because there was nothing before, and God created everything. Evil and good are done by someone right? How could have they existed on their own.  They exist with the humans .  Since humans didn't exists, and animals too, and other beings either, there was no good or evil.  Then , God brought them from non existence into existence.  It means he created them.


God is someone.  Good and evil are possible for anyone with the knowledge of good and evil.  And God knows all.

God is merciful, forgiving and just.  Are mercy, forgiveness and justice creations too?

 



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