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Author Topic: Kalam of Allah?  (Read 3056 times)

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Offline MuslimMan

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Kalam of Allah?
« on: Monday 09 October 2006, 23:34 »
I need reply to this wahabbi article:


Quote
The Ash'aris believe that Allah's Speech subsists in His Essence and is without sound or letters, and therefore, Allah could not have said 'Alif-Laam-Meem'.

The Mu'tazilas believed that the Quran is Allah's Speech; and Allah's Speech is created.

The Ash'aris believed that the Quran is not Allah's Speech, so while Allah's Speech is uncreated, the Quran remains created.

al-Juwayni the Ash'ari, in his al-Irshad, admits that the Ash'aris and the Mu'tazila agree that the Quran is created:

"Our difference with the Mu'tazila is only semantical (ikhtilaf fil-'ibara wal-tasmiya), whereas they are in agreement with the Ash'aris in meaning and essence. For the meaning of what the Mu'tazilas say is: These expressions (in the Quran) are Allah's creation, and we do not deny that they are Allah's creation. We do, however, refuse to refer to the creator of this Kalaam (i.e. the Quran), as the one to speak it. So we have agreed in essence, while disagreed, after our agreement, on naming Him (as mutakallim with this Quran)"

al-Taftazani says in his Sharh of al-Nasafi's creed:

"He said: 'al-Quran is Allah's Speech and not created'. Note that he followed the word 'Quran' with 'Kalam Allah', due to what the scholars say: The Quran is Kalam Allah, and not created. It is not said: 'al-Quran is not created', lest it comes to mind that that which is composed of sounds and letters is eternal, as the Hanbalis believe out of ignorance and obstinacy!"

He further says in refutation of the Mu'tazila:
"As for their argument that the Quran is described with the qualities of the creation and the characteristics of Huduth (contingent) from composition, arrangement, descent, and that fact that it is in Arabic, audible, eloquent and a miracle, until the end of their argument. This is only an argument against the Hanbalis, and not against us. Because we believe that the arrangement (in the Quran) is emergent/created. The discussion is restricted to the eternal meaning"

al-Bayjuri the Ash'ari theologian says in his Sharh Jawharat al-Tawheed:
"it is still only permitted to say “The Qur’an is emergent (or created)� in a classroom setting"

Ibn al-Jawzi says in al-Muntadham of al-Ash'ari:
"The people never differed that this audible Qur’an is Allah’s Speech, and that Gabriel descended with it upon the Prophet – Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him. The reliable imams declared that the Quran is eternal, while the Mu’tazila claimed that it is created. Al-Ash’ari then agreed with the Mu’tazila that the Quran is created and said: �This is not Allah’s Speech. Rather, Allah’s Speech is an Attribute subsisting in Allah’s Essence. It did not descend on the Prophet, nor is it audible.’ "

Ibn al-Jawzi would often say on the pulpit:
"The heretics (the Ash'aris) claim; i) there is none in the Heavens, ii) neither is there Qur’an in the Mushaf, and iii) nor is there a Prophet in the grave; �your three shameful facets’" (al-Dhayl)

Ibn al-Jawzi writes, while complaining about certain Ash’arites indoctrinating the masses with the Ash’arite dogma: “A group of Persian (a’ajim) heretics arrived in Baghdad and mounted the pulpits to sermon the masses. They would claim, in most of their gatherings: There is no �Speech of Allah’ on this earth, and is the mushaf anything but paper, galls and vitriol? Allah is not in the Heavens, and the slave-girl to whom the Prophet said: �Where is Allah?’ was dumb and therefore pointed towards the sky, meaning: He is not from the idols worshipped on this earth.

They then said: �Where are the �letterists’, who claim that the Quran is composed of letters and sound? Rather, the Quran is only an expression of Jibril!’ They continued in this vein, until the sacredness of the Quran diminished from the hearts of many.�

He then mentions at length, the arguments for the orthodox approach towards the Quran, and commends Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal for his rigid stance on the issue, which united the Muslims on one belief: the Quran, which is contained in the Mushaf, is the uncreated Speech of Allah. He then denigrates al-Ash’ari, saying: “Then, people did not differ in this issue, until there appeared �Ali b. Isma’il al-Ash’ari, who at first, held the beliefs of the Mu’tazilites. It then occurred to him, as he claimed, that Allah’s Speech subsists in the Divine Essence (sifah qa’imah bil-that). His claim, therefore, necessitated that the Quran we have is created.�

Ibn Qudama says in his refutation of the Ash'aris on the topic of Quran:

* "There is no dispute amongst all the Muslims that anyone who rejects a verse from the Quran, or a word, which is agreed upon, or even a letter which is agreed upon, is a Kafir... Whereas al-Ash'ari rejects the entire Quran and says: none of that is the Quran, rather it is the speech of Jibril"

* He says: "What is amazing is that they are not bold enough to manifest their belief in public, nor do they explicitly state it except when they are alone. Even if they were the rulers, or governors of countries, and you were to attribute this belief to them, they would detest it and condemn it, and become obstinate. They would only pretend to honour the Quran respect the Mushaf, and stand up upon seeing it, whereas when they are alone they say: There is nothing in it but paper and ink, what else is there in it? And this is from the actions of Zanadiqah�

* One of them said to Ibn Qudamah: I affirm that this Mushaf is actually the Quran, but it is not the eternal Quran, to which Ibn Qudamah replied: �So, do we have two Qurans?! … Some of our [Hanbali] companions said: �You (the Ash’aris) are the rulers and the governors over Islamic countries, so what prevents you from making your belief manifest to the common folk?

* He said: �We do not know of a sect from the heretics who hide their beliefs, and who are not bold enough to manifest them, except the Zanadiqah and the Ash’aris.’

* He said: �His belief (i.e. al-Ash’ari’s) is similar to that of the Mu’tazilah without doubt, except that al-Ash’ari wants to deceive. So he states his belief which appears to be agreeing with the beliefs of the people of truth. He then gives an explanation to his belief with a Mu’tazili twist.

* He says: �The reality of the Ash’ari doctrine is that there is no God in the heavens, nor is there a Quran on this earth, and nor is Muhammad a messenger of God’.

* He says: �What is amazing is that their leader (i.e. Abul-Hasan al-Ash’ari) who established their beliefs was a man not known for his religion or piety, nor was he known for any of the Sacred sciences. In fact, he belongs to no science except the science of blameworthy Kalam. All the while they acknowledge that he spent 40 years adhering to Mu’tazili doctrine, and then pretended to have retracted from it, however, nothing could be seen from him after his repentance except this Bid’ah.’

al-Saffarini al-Hanbali says in his Sharh of his own Athari creed:
"In conclusion, the Mu’tazilites are in agreement with the Ash’arites, while the Ash’arites are in agreement with the Mu’tazilites, that this Quran contained within the two covers of the Mushaf is created and anew. The only difference between the two factions is that the Mu’tazila did not affirm any other Speech for Allah except this (the Quran, which they thought was created), whereas the Ash’arites affirmed al-Kalam al-Nafsi (self-speech/talking to oneself/inner-speech) subsisting in Allah’s essence. Whereas the Mu’tazilites say, the Speech of Allah is created (and not subsisting in Allah). The Ash’aris do not consider it (the Quran) the Speech of Allah. Yes, they call it �the Speech of Allah’, but only metaphorically, and that is the belief of the majority of their predecessors."

How to silence an Ash'ari
Just ask him: Who said: Alif-Laam-Meem

Offline Hadi

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 09 October 2006, 23:58 »
this is to answer you quiclky, more details to come soon,

Allah, ta^ala, said:

??? ????? ???  
which means: Allah does not resemble any of his creations.

And one of Allah attributes is  Speech (Kalam). This is an eternal and everlasting attribute with which Allah orders, forbids, and informs. It is not a letter nor a sound nor a language. The Qur'an and the other revealed Books are expressions of the eternal Kalam of the Self of Allah.


How to silence an Ash'ari
Just ask him: Who said: Alif-Laam-Meem

When we write the word "Allah" it is an expression of the Self of Allah. Likewise, the words and sentences of the revealed Books are expressions of the Kalam of Allah. The Qur'an is called the Kalam of Allah because it is not authored by Prophet Muhammad or Angel Jibril.

 and Allah knows best

Offline samsparky

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 10 October 2006, 02:56 »
Also, letters have a sequence for example in saying "bismi" the 'b' came before the 's' sound which also came before the 'm' sound. This sequence is a proof that this speech has a beginning and hence is created. Allaah, the creator is not attributed with attributes that are created.

In both of his books, al-Fiqh al-AbsaT and al-Fiqh al-Akbar, Imaam Abu Haneefah said:

??? ?????? ??? ?????
(???????? ?????? ?????????? ??? ???????????. ????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ???? ??????????? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ?????? ?????)


It means: “Allaah’s attributes are not created. Whoever claims that the attributes of Allaah are created, or doubts it, or hesitates about whether or not they are created is a blasphemer.”

Offline samdeen06

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 10 October 2006, 09:30 »
Alhamdullillah, Brother Hadi & Samsparky explained it well on the issue.

Offline Faithful

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 10 October 2006, 11:57 »
May Allaah bless u both

Offline MuslimMan

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 28 October 2006, 11:51 »
salams brother

thanks

what is the answer to the question at the end?

Who said alif laam meem?

Offline samsparky

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 31 October 2006, 19:35 »
The answer is, Angel Jibreel copied alif laam meem from the guarded tablet and taught it to Prophet MuHammad in accordance with Allaah's Order.

Offline samsparky

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 31 October 2006, 19:37 »
It is referred to as the kalaam of Allaah because it is not from Angel Jibreel but is an expression referring to the Eternal ATrribute of Allaah of Speech which is not a letter, sound or language.

For example, the word fire is an expressing referring to the actual fire and is not the actual fire.

The terms in the book of the Qur'aan, such as: alif laam meem, is not the Attribute of Allaah, it is an expression referring to the Eternal Attribute of Allaah which can not be imagined.
« Last Edit: Tuesday 16 January 2007, 18:52 by samsparky »

Offline Emilee

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 16 January 2007, 04:04 »
soubhanAllah

may Allah protect us from the wrong /false belief and guide us  :|

Offline samsparky

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Re: Kalam of Allah?
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 16 January 2007, 18:50 »
aameen,

To add more detail, Allaah enabled Angel Jibreel to hear a created voice with letters, sound and language, to hear how the Qur'aan is recited.

This created speech is not Allaah's Attribute. Because Allaah's Attribute is without a beginning; it is not created and is not a letter, sound or language.

 



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