Topic: A Palestinian refugee's open letter to Obama

[curioustraveler]

Someone told me that the arabs are afraid of the jews,what can I say to these idiots?

[silkworm]

Negative curious, but the question is are the Arabs of Gaza are loaded with the same weaponry as the IDF is??? Do they have Cobras and F-15s??? and do they have access to satellite and thermal imagery???

[History]

Bro History, Moslems are and have been very tolerant of Jews and Christians, compare Christian crusades and pogroms against Jews and collect data on Moslem atrocities against Jews, and you will now .

Silk,
Thank you for your post.
The comparison you wish to make between the historical incidents of oppression and persecution of Jews by Christians and the oppression and persecution of Jews by Muslims varies in matters of degree.
And in how one defines "toleration."
I am not one who sees the world, nor world history, as black and white.
There were times of great "toleration" of Jews under Muslim rule and even under Christian rule.
And there were times of terrible treatment.
More mass murders of Jews were performed by Christians than Muslims.
Yet Jews only obtained full equality as a minority among Christian majorities but not under Muslim rule.
"Toleration" is not recognition as an equal nor equal treatment nor equal freedom.
And why would anyone (Jew or other) perceive being a tolerated subclass separated in mellahs or surguns (or equivalent) with only occasional Farhuds ?
As more Muslims come to or come from post-Enlightenment Western nations, where such equalities and freedoms, perhaps this historical hierarchical Muslim mindset is changing.....

...you did call me "Bro History," for example.   

Good Shabbos and Chag Sameach!

Respectfully,
History

[silkworm]

More mass murders of Jews were performed by Christians than Muslims.
Yet Jews only obtained full equality as a minority among Christian majorities but not under Muslim rule.
 
Thanks for the above post and thanks also for accepting the truth, however you are 50% wrong.
 
There have been bunch of books and believe me, these books were NOT written by some hill billies but some of the world authentic rresearchers and writers who are of the opinon that:

• Moslems lands proved to be the best sanctuary for fleeing Jews from persecution at the hands of Christians.   
  
• In Spain, Moslems and Jews literati collaborated and translated each other's work, all the literature and medical works that the Jews needed were translated from Greek into Arabic and then into Hebrew later.
• Moslem King and their Governments utilized the services of Jews and Christians as Tax Collectors, Architects, Dragomans, Physicians, finance assistants.
• Ibn Al-Arabi was widely copied and translated and later were forwarded to Christian lands through this "education collaboration" to spread into masses.
• This is how the famous Jewish scholar on Islam Prof. Bernard Lewis compliments the religion of Islam        “Islam is one of the world’s great religions. Let me be explicit about what I, as a historian of Islam who is not a Muslim, mean by that. Islam has brought comfort and peace of mind to countless millions of men and women.
• It has given dignity and meaning to drab and impoverished lives. It has taught people of different races to live in brotherhood and people of different creeds to live side by side in reasonable tolerance. It inspired a great civilization in which others besides Muslims lived creative and useful lives and which, by its achievement, enriched the whole world.”
• a) Jews, Christians and Muslims in Mediterranean world after 1492 By Alisa Meyunas Ginio (Portland, OR, International Specialized Books 1992)
  b) Convivencia, Jews, Muslim and Christians in Medieval Spain By Vivian Mann, B. Thomas, F. Glick and Jerrilyn D. Dodds, Newyork, George Brazillers and the Jewish Museum 1992)

In the end I suggest Bro History that you should buy the two books I quoted above - OK, On calling you Bro,  I am not a monster and there is no harm in calling you Bro, its a tragedy that we are cousins but have to stand against each other while  our brothers "exchange ideas"' through the barrel of the gun.

Being a human and a Moslem do you think I enjoy we killing other, God has not allowed us to kill each other on religious basis.
 

[History]

...about the position of Jews in the Islamic world, we find two well-established myths. One is the story of a golden age of equality, of mutual respect and cooperation, especially but not exclusively in Moorish Spain; the other is of “dhimmi”-tude, of subservience and persecution and ill treatment. Both are myths. Like many myths, both contain significant elements of truth, and the historic truth is in its usual place, somewhere in the middle between the extremes.

There are certain important differences between the treatment, the position, the perception of Jews in the pre-modern Islamic world and in the pre-modern and also modern Christian worlds.

The story of a golden age of complete equality is, of course, nonsense. No such thing was possible or even conceivable. Indeed, among Christians and Muslims alike, giving equal rights or, more precisely, equal opportunities to unbelievers would have been seen not as a merit but as a dereliction of duty.

...Jews, especially those of European origin, were active in trade and industry, and from many documents in the Ottoman archives it is clear that they were valued as a revenue-producing asset. They were not just permitted; they were encouraged and even on a few occasions compelled to settle in Ottoman lands, especially in newly conquered provinces.

Obviously, this is not equality, but it is not anti-Semitism in any sense of the word either. The Ottomans’ treatment of the Jews even included a kind of respect. We do of course find expressions of prejudice against the Jews, as against any group of people that are different, but their general attitude was of amused, tolerant superiority.

An interesting difference in hostile stereotypes can be found in anecdotes, jokes, and the like. The main negative quality attributed to Jews in Turkish and Arab folklore was that they were cowardly and unmilitary—very contemptible qualities in a martial society.

...We have some vivid descriptions at the time of the expectations and reactions of 1948. Azzam Pasha, who was then the secretary-general of the Arab League, is quoted as having said: “This will be like the Mongol invasions. We will utterly destroy them. We will sweep them into the sea.” The expectation was that it would be quick and easy. There would be no problem at all dealing with half a million Jews. It was then an appalling shock when five Arab armies were defeated by half a million Jews with very limited weaponry. It remains shameful, humiliating. This was mentioned at the time and has been ever since. One writer said: “It was bad enough to be conquered and occupied by the mighty empires of the West, the British Empire, the French Empire, but to suffer this fate at the hands of a few hundred thousand Jews was intolerable.”

....The growth of European-style anti-Semitism in the Arab world derived in the main from this feeling of humiliation and the need therefore to ascribe to the Jews a role very different from their traditional role in Arab folklore and much closer to that of the anti-Semitic prototypes. By now the familiar themes of European anti-Semitism—the blood libel, the protocols of Zion, the international Jewish conspiracy, and the rest—have become standard fare in much of the Arab world, in the schoolroom, the pulpit, the media, and even on the Internet. It is bitterly ironic that these themes have been adopted by previously immune Muslims precisely at a time when in Europe they have become an embarrassment even to anti-Semites.

...A significant number of Arabs remained in the territories under Jewish rule. It was taken then as axiomatic, and has never been challenged since, that no Jews could remain in the areas of Palestine under Arab rule, so that as well as Arab refugees from the Jewish-controlled areas, there were Jewish refugees from the Arab-controlled areas of mandatary Palestine, not just settlers, but old, established groups, notably the ancient Jewish community in East Jerusalem, which was totally evicted and its monuments desecrated or destroyed. The United Nations seemed to have no problem with this; nor did international public opinion. When Jews were driven out, no provision was made for them, no help offered, no protest made. This surely sent a very clear message to the Arab world, a less clear message to the Jews.

Jewish refugees came not only from those parts of Palestine that were under Arab rule, but also from Arab countries, where the Jewish communities either fled or were driven out, in numbers roughly equal to those of the Arab refugees from Israel. Again, the response of the United Nations to the two groups of refugees was very different. For Arab refugees in Palestine, very elaborate arrangements were made and very extensive financing provided. This contrasts not only with the treatment of Jews from Arab countries, but with the treatment of all the other refugees at the time.

...At the same time, virtually all the Arab governments announced that they would not give visas to Jews of any nationality. This was not furtive—it was public, proclaimed on the visa forms and in the tourist literature. They made it quite clear that people of the Jewish religion, no matter what their citizenship, would not be given visas or be permitted to enter any independent Arab country. Again, not a word of protest from anywhere. One can imagine the outrage if Israel had announced that it would not give visas to Muslims, still more if the United States were to do so. As directed against Jews, this ban was seen as perfectly natural and normal. In some countries it continues to this day, although in practice most Arab countries have given it up.
--Bernard Lewis
http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000008.html


For detailed history and actual source documents regarding the Jews living under Muslim rule, please see:

Jews of Arab Lands: A History and Source Book 
by Norman A. Stillman
http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Arab-Lands-History-Source/dp/0827601980

The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times
by Norman A. Stillman
http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Arab-Lands-Modern-Times/dp/0827607652/ref=pd_sim_b_5

The Jews of Islam
by Bernard Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Islam-Bernard-Lewis/dp/0691008078/ref=pd_sim_b_3

You may also wish to read:
Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice
by Bernard Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Semites-Anti-Semites-Inquiry-Conflict-Prejudice/dp/0393318397/ref=pd_sim_b_4

Jews and Arabs: A Concise History of Their Social and Cultural Relations
by S.D. Goitein
http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Arabs-Concise-Cultural-Relations/dp/0486439879/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239644227&sr=1-1

Jews and Arabs
by Albert Memmi (autobiographical essays by an Arab Jew)
http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Arabs-Albert-Memmi/dp/0879553286/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239644294&sr=1-1

More on request.

[silkworm]

The so-called Jews and Zionists have printed billion and billions of fake stories which is making the head of all people spinning but this is why "researchers", "Investigators" and "truth-diggers" are honored cause they always find the truth, especially the insiders and whistlw blowers.
 
If you could read the Speech of Benjamin H. Freedman, you would be probably.....Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermyer, Woodrwo Wilson, Frankilin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, John. F. Kennedy and many more movers and shakers of our time.
 
Any ways I would be opening a new thread soon on the above.
 
P.S.
 The World "Anti-Semitism" is the worst prank jews are playing, Arabs, Palestinians, Phoenicians, Assyrians all are Semitic nations.   
 
Again, these are my personal views and have nothing to do with this forum and its rules.

[whatislam]

hello silkworm

there is this story.

"There was one saint who had been giving discourse for many years. Once in his satsang he asked fellow listeners - why do you come everyday? Gita, Ramayan, Mahabarat etc. they are the same literary works from which our discourses are taking place. There is no other new topic to listen to, then why do you come everyday?

One gentleman replied "Your Holiness, I have heard that mongoose and snake are enemies. When both are fighting they bite each other. Mongoose bites the snake and injures him. The mongoose is very careful but still he gets few venomous bites from the snake. When the poison spreads in his body then he retreats to his hole and smells the antidote. This cures him and gives him the strength to again fight with snake. In the end, mongoose defeats the snake. Similarly we confront this world. Attachment-aversion, desire, anger, lust etc. are the venomous bites of this world. When we go for satsang (antidote) and listen to discourses then the effect of the poison is reduced. Whatever we listen to we also apply in our lives. By applying it the effect of the poison is nullified. Then we regain strength and again face the world and confront it. In this manner, one day we are victorious."

Satsang means spiritual reading and discourse. 

it seems a little as if, silkworm - as you mention below you are all brothers...  all from one semitic family.  it seems to me that rather than seeking the antidote you keep on poisoning yourself with anger and aversion/attachment --- maybe you would be better with some antidote (reading your spiritual books) rather than poison (the books you seem to be reading) for some time???

 

 

[silkworm]

I am a Moslem and a human being, what would you do if you were in my place and your people are being massacred like tomatoes??? What would you say if the life of your co-religionists is NOT being spared even if they are elederly, women and children. Have you seen the bodies of the kids as young as 6-9 years old riddgled with bullet holes while the killers call themselves "Heroes".    

My antidote is to speak-up against this oppression,. if I can't go and kill somebody and blow up their military installations, I can speak against this oppression, right??? Do I have this right??? 

[whatislam]

hello silkworm

you do as you want, of course.  nobody is stopping your right to speech - but i sense that this hatred you have is no antidote...  and these books you read just a fuel to more hatred and damaging to yourself.   

"In every act kindle the light of divine love. Always remember your essential divine nature and act in the world in a spirit of divine dedication."

could it be possible that these books that you feel are leading you to "truth" are not, in fact, pushing you further into darkness and hatred and that you would be better concentrating on books that have REAL spiritual truths?

HOLY scripture when you read it - should bring you toward light not darkness.

all this anger and hatred you seem to have swooshing around in your mind.  for me, i would say that is detrimental to anyone.  in Hindu philosophy there is this idea that your thoughts make you who you are.  that consistent thoughts and actions become habits and habits get ingrained and become tendencies and tendencies form character and that character is then you.